A Mother's Mission After Unthinkable Loss with Sally Raymond

Sally Raymond, a psychotherapist and mother, shares how her brilliant son John's suicide catapulted her into a lifelong mission to understand what she missed and help other parents recognize warning signs. Through her heartbreak and professional training, she discovered how early childhood experiences and developmental stages can create vulnerabilities that might contribute to suicidal thoughts later in life.

• John's broken collarbone at birth created trust issues that affected his entire life
• Early childhood developmental stages create foundations for later resilience or vulnerability
• Academic success can sometimes mask internal struggles
• Signs of suicidal thoughts include isolation, sleep changes, and sudden mood improvements
• Asking directly about suicidal thoughts doesn't put the idea in someone's mind
• Sally developed school programs teaching communication and leadership skills
• Every person is the center of a galaxy of relationships that changes when they're gone
• Processing grief requires finding purpose and meaning in the loss

If you or someone you know is having thoughts of suicide, please reach out. Call or text 988 to connect with a trained crisis counselor 24-7, or look for your local helpline.

Check out Sally's Book here: The Son I Knew Too Late: A Guide To Help You Survive And Thrive

Check out her website at: https://sallyaraymond.com/

*Please know that some links I share will give me a small amount of money to thank me for sending you their way.  This is at no extra cost to you and helps me buy a cup of coffee if I'm lucky. :-)

Chapters

• 0:00 A Mother's Devastating Wake-Up Call
• 7:45 John's Early Life and Hidden Pain
• 18:00 Trust Issues and Developmental Stages
• 26:45 Academic Achievement as Trauma Response
• 35:35 Warning Signs Parents Should Never Miss
• 42:05 Finding Hope and Purpose After Loss

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

John was the biggest wake-up call I could ever, ever, ever imagine, and he put me on a path I would never be on any other way. Suicide is such a big deal. It's drawing so many, so many people not just the person who dies, but a whole galaxy of people around them. That will never be the same again.

Speaker 2: 0:23

Welcome to Advancing with Amy, mental health warrior and neuro-spicy mama. In today's deeply moving episode, we sit down with Sally Raymond. She's a mother, a psychotherapist and a fierce advocate whose world was forever changed by the loss of her brilliant son, john to suicide. Through heartbreak and perseverance, sally has turned unimaginable pain into a powerful mission to help parents and communities recognize the subtle signs of struggle, foster resilience and cultivate hope at every stage of life. Join us as we listen to Sally's honest and courageous story a journey from devastation to advocacy, as she shares the hard-won lessons she wished she'd known sooner.

Speaker 2: 1:17

This isn't just a story of loss. It's a testament to the healing power of connection, the importance of trust and the unwavering love between a mother and her child. If you or someone you love has ever faced mental health challenges, this episode offers understanding, comfort and inspiration to keep moving forward. Let's begin this conversation with Sally, whose vulnerability and determination remind us that every person's life is at the center of a galaxy and that hope, even after great loss, can be found and shared. Sally, thank you for being here. Can you take us back to the moment on your journey when this mission began for you, the moment that changed everything for you as a mom?

Speaker 1: 2:05

Oh, thank you very much, amy. I certainly can. I was just a normal mom raising two little boys as a single parent, and my eldest was the brightest little light I've ever seen in my life. He was reading at two, he was giving me 45-minute debates on why he didn't need to make his bed at six and he was winning. And I knew I had to go back to school to keep up with his little upstart and stay the mom, you know, because he had to still listen to me and obey me and he wasn't going to if he didn't have any, if I didn't have any credibility. And so because of him, I had to get straight A's, because he never got a B and I had to end up graduating with highest honors when I was a C student in high school and perfectly happy about it. So he really was my Pygmalion, wow.

Speaker 1: 3:01

And the moment that changed my life as I was just becoming a licensed psychotherapist. He had graduated from Carnegie Mellon at 21 with his bachelor's and master's, and I was the proudest, happiest and most successful mom in the world. And a year and a half later he killed himself, and none of my stories about my son could have ended that way. My stories about my son could have ended that way. I just saw a superstar rocketing to the stars and I did not see how he could have possibly how it could have ended like that, and I was just becoming a psychotherapist. I just had the training and tools most moms never have and I and I was catapulted. That moment catapulted me out on a mission to find out what I missed, and did you ever come up with that?

Speaker 1: 3:54

I came up with a hundred stories, amy, and all of them were things I either didn't know or didn't understand before. But with my new training I could look back and now see what fit his bottom line, which would have been and then I killed myself. Wow, and it started at birth.

Speaker 2: 4:14

It started at birth.

Speaker 1: 4:16

Started at birth. There were so many stories and at every age there was a story that really took him from growth and excitement to demoralization. And I didn't see it happening. As most parents, we're here to lead to life, lead to hope, believe in our children, look at the positive and we miss the negative. And at birth I was a brand new mom. I'd never had a kid before, I wasn't used to babies and he was crying. All the negative. And at birth I was a brand new mom.

Speaker 1: 4:45

I'd never had a kid before, I wasn't used to babies and he was crying all the time and I was beside myself trying to take care of him and you know, up maybe 30 times a night and I was calling my pediatrician, my new pediatrician, who was an elderly man I picked because I thought he was so seasoned. I didn't think that maybe he was becoming senile and anyway he kept saying, oh, it's just colic, and he'd give me stuff for colic and it didn't help him. But he said it lasts three months and then it'll be over and everything will be fine. But my baby was crying and crying and crying and I couldn't stop him and I couldn't soothe him and I tried my best and it was just on and on and on and at three months he was still crying and I called that doctor back up and I said you said it'd be over, and he's still crying as hard as ever. And he said well, maybe it's the four-month colic or the five-month, and I just lost it. I just hung up on him and I called my friends in a panic and they steered me to another pediatrician who I called immediately and he said bring him in.

Speaker 1: 5:58

And I brought my baby boy in and he took his clothes off and he was examining him and he said oh, feel right here. He just felt right here, right at the shoulder, and he said feel that lump right there. He broke his collarbone in birth, oh my gosh. And he said it's starting to heal now, but that's what's been hurting him. So whenever he moved or I picked him up which I did all the time trying to soothe him I was hurting him. But you had no idea. No, but it didn't matter, because the damage was, from that point on, whenever I could see it now I couldn't see it before, but whenever I go to pick him up, his eyes would be looking wary and then you know he'd try to pull back away from you. And that continued, amy, almost all of his life. He would shy away from touch, he would be like no, because he learned from the very beginning of his life that touch somebody touching him, holding him, trying to love him was going to hurt him. How heartbreaking.

Speaker 1: 7:07

It was. It was. I was absolutely beside myself and I didn't know what to say to him. Of course he was a little tiny and when he was about 10, I, I think I, that's when I finally thought he was old enough and I told him. I said you know, the reason why you keep backing away and shying away from touch is because and I told him what happened and all he said was well, I'm glad I know where it came from, but what do I do about it?

Speaker 1: 7:36

And at that time I was just a mom and I just said you know, john, I don't know, but I'll tell you one thing it not who you are, it's not. It's not formal, it's not. It's not who you are, it's what happened to you. It's something that happened to you so early that you have this automatic reflex. But it's not. It's not who you are, it isn't. It isn't. It was just something that horrible that happened, that never got caught and I didn didn't know any better and I didn't understand it. No, and that's as much as I could do, but that's the. Actually, I now know as a psychologist that if you don't have, if you have cannot trust at the beginning of your life, trust is the biggest issue's, the first issue out of the womb, and if you can't trust which he couldn't, he couldn't trust me. I was going to hurt him. That has a high association with suicide later on.

Speaker 2: 8:34

I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 8:36

Yeah, and you don't know how important it is to bond with your baby and be there for him and really, you know, take care. I should have had a second opinion right away. I should have done it, but I trusted the first doctor and I didn't know any better. But now I do and I'd be like, oh, I should have gotten a second opinion right away. It would have changed everything. But as it was, this is what happened.

Speaker 1: 9:01

So that was the very first insult that he really fielded. It was none of his fault and it was totally my fault because I didn't do what I could have done. And that was a horrible, horrible, horrible lacuna on my part and I didn't know how important trust was. If I'd known that trust was the biggest thing and if I saw him crying all the time, I'd be saying I've got to, I've got to get help, I've got it, I've got to do something about this, because otherwise I'll never. I'll never be able to live with myself if I don't do my best. But at the time I believe I just trusted my doctor and he he just was pushing it off to this colic thing that it was never that.

Speaker 2: 9:46

Well, you were doing the best that you knew, at that time, to do.

Speaker 1: 9:50

It doesn't help the situation Right.

Speaker 2: 9:54

It almost goes to say that people should be. I think people should get parenting training in high school, but I never thought about getting trained so that your child doesn't hurt themselves later in life.

Speaker 1: 10:07

Yeah, I mean, you don't know the long-term effects of something. That's such an initial experience. It's the first experience out of the womb and so that's huge, huge downstream effects. And at every new age there's a different issue that we are fielding, because it's a growth issue. It's helping equip us and if we don't have it resolved in a positive way then it's going to undermine the stage next and the next and the next. I didn't know any of that and that's what my book is. It talks about the different issues at every stage. The first issue is trust. The second issue is to be able to walk around, and to move around and be autonomous. And you're just beginning to walk and if you're not allowed to do that, it's going to absolutely make you feel what you interject is you're no good.

Speaker 2: 11:06

You're no good and there's shame and guilt, and I know you've taken a lot of time to research this and to figure out what caused this, and you've obviously got an idea. How do you live with that? I mean, is there some guilt there or?

Speaker 1: 11:24

You know, I just had to find out every single thing I could, and I didn't care what it did, you know what it meant to me or anything. I just had to find out every single thing I possibly could, and I couldn't live with myself if I didn't. And I had to know what his experience was. And I realized I have made a lot of innocent mistakes I didn't mean to make. I mean, I didn't know they were mistakes at the time. But I sure know that other parents are making exactly the same mistakes now that I did, and they're doing the same to their children as they did to John.

Speaker 1: 12:00

And because I couldn't save John's life which I had no idea that I thought he was doing great and I got the call. You can't survive, and I didn't survive. I died as a mom. I have no idea who that person was anymore. That person died with John. I didn't know who I was, I didn't know his story, I didn't know my story. I didn't know anything anymore, and so I was. I didn't know his story, I didn't know my story, I didn't know anything anymore, and so I died. And because I was now a therapist, all I could do was try to find out where I went wrong and then help save other people, and I feel like.

Speaker 2: 12:38

I feel like you're grieving not only him, but who you were.

Speaker 1: 12:42

Oh, yeah, I mean. But at the same time I think that girl she deserved to die because she blew it, and I feel like I have no respect for that girl. I have no interest in knowing anything about her anymore. She's gone, she's gone, she's absolutely gone in my life.

Speaker 1: 13:01

But I do go to the grave twice a year to talk to him and he really is still here as far as I'm concerned. I know he's still here and he's helping me make the most out of his life in a way that would help other people, and that's what I feel like our job is to make his life a teaching, a sacrificial teaching for the rest of us, so that we don't make the same mistakes and we learn. And we do the opposite. We help children throughout their lives know how to keep life worth living. And that's really really important today, because right now we're looking at the dissolution of our society and a whole lot of other things and we've lost the glue that kept society together and cohesive and thriving. And that is what I am about and that's what I am trying to. I'm working to try and correct and teach, because if we don't, we're lost. Oh, I agree.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Do you feel like you're a much stronger person now than because of all?

Speaker 1: 14:08

this. I've always been a kind of a buoyant person. I was very lucky to have the mom I had. She was an Italian mom and you didn't mess with my mom, but she really gave me some incredibly wonderful parenting skills by what she did with me and I saw how well it worked and I feel very blessed in that way and I use the same tools that she used on me, on my kids, and they were the straightest arrows you ever saw. That's funny and I felt very, very blessed, and I really do, because I don't know what it is about me, but I do have a very buoyant spirit and with John he was such a success in his life I mean, he was the most successful young man I have ever seen in my life. He was the most successful young man I have ever seen in my life.

Speaker 2: 15:08

And to think, he was even my son is just stunning, and to think about where he could have gone and what he could have done.

Speaker 1: 15:12

Well, he had his bachelor's and master's in theoretical math at 21. Wow, he had eclipsed three years of regular school and he was the only survivor of his cohort at Carnegie Mellon. There were 33 handpicked, highly select, worldwide students that he was a cohort of at the beginning of the program and he was the only one left. 32 crashed and burned and I don't know if any of those committed suicide, but they very well could have. And John had tremendous survivor guilt because he was the only success and all the others that would have been his colleagues for the rest of their lives, and his friends and everything else were gone and it was tragic. And to think that Carnegie Mellon or any of these universities that are elite universities would actually create a program that is so hard that 32 of 33 would crash and burn is heinous. That is F to the institution for creating an impossible course of study.

Speaker 2: 16:31

I agree it says something about the course of study and less about the student. Oh my, gosh.

Speaker 1: 16:36

I mean, the Fs are the institution that is on the institution to create something that nobody can survive except one of 33. And my son had written us before his graduation and he said I am now the only one left on track for this mission degree program. And he said, if I had known when I was 3.03% of the entering class that I would be the 100% of the graduating class, I would never have accepted Well, who would, with those statistics? And yet that's what they created. And then all the money that went into those 32 kids, that their parents, and all the hopes and dreams and possibilities that were shattered for nothing. And then the school was free to do that again next year and next year and next year. It's just. It's impossible to realize what their part in creating John's success and everyone else's failure really have. But it's horrible. It's a gulag. They put him in a gulag and that you think you trust. You know I trusted the university. This is going to be great. John is going to do so good and then he's going to have colleagues.

Speaker 2: 17:54

He's going to have all these people and no, nothing, no, it was set up against all the students Right, and that has to be so isolating and you have to feel so alone at that point.

Speaker 1: 18:16

Yeah, absolutely Isolate and furious. He wrote that he would never give Carnegie Mellon a dime in support. So he was thinking of living. But he was so furious because he'd watched all of his wonderful, wonderful cohort drop out one by one, by one, by one, by one by one, and that was just impossible. So there was a lot.

Speaker 2: 18:34

Yeah. What do you think he would say about what you're doing now?

Speaker 1: 18:38

I think he would say I have a lot more to do. John was a tough cookie. I mean, he always was the one who questioned every single thing you said, every single thing you did. I mean it was so hard to be his mom because he asked such good questions and I was trying my best to answer them. And one time he and his brother went to visit his dad and I guess he was about 10 or 11 at the time and his dad called me up and he said we've got to send John to military school. And I went, what? I was like what do you mean? And he said we have to send him to military school.

Speaker 1: 19:17

I said I heard you. But I said but why? And he said because he's questioning me. And I'm like yeah, okay, but what is he doing wrong? And he said didn't you hear me? I told you he's questioned and I was like I understand, but what is he doing wrong? And my ex was just getting madder and saying you are an idiot, you are the blah, blah, blah. And I finally said look, is he doing anything illegal? No, is he doing poorly in school? No, is he not getting along with people? No, and why would you put a perfectly good kid in.

Speaker 2: 19:59

I understand the feeling, though I have a daughter who is highly intelligent. She's got autism, but she's very intelligent and I think she's been more intelligent than I have been since she was very young. She's 15 now and she likes to debate me to the nth degree, so I totally get it.

Speaker 1: 20:18

Yes, and my ex is. Obviously he's a patriarchal kind of mindset, and you don't question the patriarch. Well, I'm not like that. I mean, my parents were egalitarian and so we're all equals, and so if he had been under his dad's purview he wouldn't have been able to ask those questions or he would have been put away, and that would have gone right away. I mean, john would have killed himself right then for sure. Well, yeah, because he couldn't be himself Exactly.

Speaker 2: 20:46

So tell me, with your training and your knowledge now, do you think that helped you heal in any way or be more resilient?

Speaker 1: 20:55

I feel that what I'm doing is what I must do to right the wrongs and take the wrongs from a negative to a positive, to give to the others what I couldn't give my son because I didn't know, and now that he has made me learn things the hardest way possible, that I would never have learned any other way than if he had lived and died. And that is what I think is his gift. And it's my job to turn that gift into the greatest gift the world could ever have, because John really really was a person that could have saved the world. He really had all that. You couldn't believe what he had turned into by the time he graduated. He was the most magnificent young man I have ever seen in my life and I really do believe he could have saved the world, and other people have said the same thing. So it's not just me and he was just the most amazing person ever I mean ever and I think that he was a sacrifice for the greater good and I'm making sure he is. I am not going to.

Speaker 2: 22:11

It's incredible that you're doing that. What would you say to a new parent nowadays that thinks everything's fine and isn't worried at all?

Speaker 1: 22:19

I'd say, read my book and take it to heart, and read it over and over and take it with you at every stage of life, because it'll help you keep life worth the living for your child and yourself. It will also heal you. It will help you heal too, because these things are all. Every single person goes through the same stages of life and they have the same needs every single stage. And if you know that, you know how to apply it to yourself, you know how to apply it to your children or your parents or your friends or anything at all, and it works. And so that's something we never knew is what was going inside, inside the black box of the person, about what matters, what doesn't matter, what's critical, what isn't critical. This tells you that, and it was the work of Eric Erickson. He was a psychosocial theorist, he was a contemporary of Freud and yet he didn't believe in what Freud was saying. But he said it's an interaction between the environment and the internal personality of the child and that helps us grow. And he did a tremendous analysis.

Speaker 1: 23:26

And when I first read Erickson's work, my son was in Carnegie Mellon and he was doing great and I kept thinking why didn't I know about this? Why am I reading it now, when I needed it years and years ago and I was like gosh. This would have been absolutely critical information to know. And it's simple, it's not hard, anyone can get it, and yet it's not been ever given to the public. So with my book I used John's stories as the emotional content to marry with the information that Eric Erickson says, so as you can see how the stair steps work throughout life and at every stage of life, john hit something that was really profound, that had a tremendous effect on that particular issue at the time.

Speaker 2: 24:20

Right and just compounded.

Speaker 1: 24:21

It compounded and compounded. So as I saw him rising to the stars, I didn't see that he was doing it as a kind of a trauma response, that it was pushing him to do something so impossible that nobody else could do it. But it was actually a symptom of the traumas. That makes sense.

Speaker 2: 24:44

Yeah, yeah, and you wouldn't have known at the time.

Speaker 1: 24:47

Oh, I just saw the outside of the rocket ship going to the stars and I was like this kid is unbelievable, but I didn't see what was powering it all.

Speaker 2: 24:59

When you wrote the book. Do you feel like that was a therapeutic thing or do you feel like it opened up old wounds?

Speaker 1: 25:05

I mean, after every story I wrote I would have to spend months just grieving, just completely lost. I couldn't bear to go back, I couldn't bear to do anything. It would take me months after each one to pull myself together, to start to do more research and see the next thing that I needed to know. It took years it took a total of 28 years to write and I didn't give myself time off. But I wrote many, many different edits and I had to have many angels showed up to help me do it. They really did.

Speaker 1: 25:42

I got the most incredible editor and whether I was in the hospital, I told never, I'd never walk again or whatever. She was like we're finishing this book. That's great, right, we fought over every word and she always won. Sounds like a labor of love. It was a labor of love and the two of us worked together and I have so much love and respect for her because she really helped me put this together in a way that would help other people the best way possible. But now I'm working on a lot of other things, because there's just so much for people to know these days.

Speaker 1: 26:20

What's the name of your book? Oh, it's called the Son. I Knew Too Late. It sounds terrible, but it's a guide to help you survive and thrive, and that's the subtitle, and that's my promise to the readers is that it's not a negative. It's a sad story because it's the lost, but John was no tragedy. He was the most incredible success you ever saw, and so his loss was huge. But at the same time, there's so much to teach from something where there's no confounding other issues. He wasn't doing drugs. He wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just powering out drugs. He wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just powering out. And so then you have to look at what really was behind all the fact that he opted out.

Speaker 2: 27:06

Are there signs that other parents can look for?

Speaker 1: 27:08

Oh for sure. There are so many signs and it's so important to actually ask the child. So are you thinking of killing yourself? Because they won't be surprised and at worst they're going to say you're out of your mind, mom.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Yeah, I think some people think if they ask that question, they're bringing it up and putting it in their mind.

Speaker 1: 27:30

Oh, they've already got it, believe me, and they're seeing their friends and peers and everything, and believe me, that's 100% alive and available, all throughout their shot through their world. And so you have to ask, because they'll tell you. But even if they don't tell you, their body language will give them away.

Speaker 2: 27:51

Yeah, my daughter's doctor asked her at every appointment if she's thinking about that, and I used to be shocked in the beginning, but now I'm grateful.

Speaker 1: 27:59

No, you have to ask because they have to know you care, and if you don't ask, they think you don't care and that I don't matter.

Speaker 2: 28:07

What other signs? If your son seems happy and seems to be progressing well, like your son was, what other signs can people look for?

Speaker 1: 28:16

Well, drugs, of course, and alcohol, because that flatlines your potential and they're using to flatline something that's hard, but then they don't grow, wow yeah, then you're flatlining your potential. So that's a living suicide where you're still alive, but you've basically flatlined everything that you could have been. Other things that you've got to look out for is talking about being a burden or isolating, not seeing any excitement about life. You know, sort of just existing without getting interested in anything. But also, if your loved child or yourself or anyone has been in a deep depression and suddenly seem really happy, don't think they're okay, that's usually the biggest sign that they're ready to kill themselves because they've made a decision and that gives them this release that I know what I'm going to do now and that's imminent danger.

Speaker 2: 29:20

And a lot of people miss that.

Speaker 1: 29:22

A lot of people miss that. They think, oh, finally she's okay. No, no, no, no. That's a serious danger sign that a lot of people miss. Don't miss it. And so there's that. There's sleeping too much, too little, avoiding friendships, doing, stopping things that they used to enjoy. All these things are big red flags and that's when you ask, you go in and say what's going on. After John died, I had a renter in the same room, john occupied, and this boy. Basically, I don't know how I got so lucky, but he was very different than John, but he was as brilliant as John, which is saying a lot. And this boy went through a lot of different permutations and we ended up living together a total of eight years and we kind of became family. But because he was gay, he became suicidal a number of times and I caught him every single time. Oh, thank God I did and I said oh no, you don't Right.

Speaker 1: 30:27

And I kept saying you know you're a rare and very special person and it's going to take a very rare and special person to be able to match you and be your significant other. But I said if you're here, they're there too and you just have to hold on and hang on and trust the process and, believe me, you know that will happen and I am so glad to report he found that person. Oh, that's great. They're the happiest couple you ever saw and they love each other deeply. And they made me the ring bearer in the West. Oh, that gave me chills.

Speaker 2: 31:02

That's so beautiful, very cool. So what would you say to someone who just recently lost their child and feels like the world has ended? What is your advice for?

Speaker 1: 31:15

them, I'd say you're right, the world has ended, but this doesn't mean it's over. It's the beginning of a new life, and you save your life now, because their life will be in incredible jeopardy, and so you have to save your life. I had to remodel my whole house, because all I saw was a mausoleum full of his death. All I saw was a mausoleum full of his death, and so everything, everything, every wall, every floor, every window I had to change what I saw, because it was just killing me. It was literally killing me, and so I had to turn this home into a celebration of his life instead of mausoleum of his death, and I had to do the work myself, and so I became a tile setter, and I'm a very good tile setter now.

Speaker 1: 32:03

Now, I bet that was therapeutic working with your hands and just really using my mind to think this is going to be John's resurrection. In a way, this is going to show that this home is full of light, it's full of space, it's beautiful and it's the celebration of John's life, and so that was part of it. I had to become a psychotherapist and write a book about him that would help others. You have to do something about what happened. You can't just let it fester. It'll take you out. You've basically turned into a different person and you're on a completely different path than you've ever been, and it's going to be worth the living. But you have to keep on it and find out what the what doors open for you and what needs to happen will show up. But don't ever think that child is gone. They're as gone as you allow them to be is gone. They're as gone as you allow them to be. If you stay connected, if you stay open, you'll see the many ways they show up. And one thing that happened for me that really forced me to realize that there was more, that this wasn't the end, is I had a pair of earrings that I love very much, that I got in Big Sur and they're very special to me.

Speaker 1: 33:21

And after John died, my boyfriend at the time took me to Maui. He said you've just got to get away from this. And you know, blah, blah, blah. And so on Mother's Day in Maui, he took me on this long ride to Hana, which is a very difficult ride. It's a long and hot and dusty ride but it's absolutely this beautiful rainforest. You go to this beautiful rainforest and it was a sacred area of the gods, the Hawaiian gods, and we were hiking up this incredible rainforest and there were seven sacred pools and we swam in one and we hiked up to the great waterfall and I was just miserable the entire time thinking about my son and how, the how. This was the worst mother's day in my life. And halfway back I noticed one of my earrings was gone and I really loved that earring and I was just like I can't handle, you know, any more loss. I can't handle. Here's something that means something to me too. And now it's gone and my boyfriend was like, oh, it's a gift to the Maui gods and I was like typical man doesn't get it. And anyway, we got back and I got back to Santa Barbara, where I live here, and I put the ring and the other earring in my jewelry box.

Speaker 1: 34:41

And six months later we went back to Maui and this time we brought my only other son and my surrogate son, mike the guy I just told you about that is married now and we took them on that hike because it's a beautiful hike. And we got there and I was like my earring is here somewhere, and this was a three hour hike and we were hiking and like it probably fell off on the trail and it's rained into some rocks and it's covered with leaves and I'll never see it again. Or else it fell off in the pool and we swam and it's over all the waterfalls and it's in the ocean. And I couldn't stop thinking about that earring and I I don't know exactly when, but about an hour or two into the hike, I was stepping over a rock with crevice, leaves and a hook, I picked up my earring. That is amazing. I lost the earring on the Mother's Day, after losing John, and here I am six months later finding an earring in a tropical rainforest. Right, I can't find that's a sign.

Speaker 1: 35:48

I can't even find an earring in my bedroom. If I lose it here, I am going. You're no. And my boyfriend was behind me. He saw it. I lifted it up and he just yelled that's impossible. He just yelled, that's impossible. And I just sat there looking at it going. What does this mean? And all I could think of is I don't think the Maui gods gave it back to me. I thought it was John and I thought he was. There's hope. Yeah, there's always hope, there's hope. And that's what actually started the book.

Speaker 2: 36:22

That's great. Now you do other things besides being an author. Don't you belong to an organization?

Speaker 1: 36:29

Well, I've started a couple of nonprofits and I also have taught for 21 years now. By a teacher invitation I go into schools and teach what I think all kids really and John would have definitely benefited from is I teach social, emotional skills building. It's unbelievable. You walk in and I tell you, amy, I just see a sea of dead, bored eyes and you just sit there and go.

Speaker 1: 36:59

If this is what education is doing to our kids, no wonder they're suicidal. I mean, it's really ugly. But eight weeks later you cannot believe the light in those eyes. You can't believe all the hands that keep raising. Now learn how to use to find the skills within them to make a difference, to get people to think you matter, to realize you matter, your story matters, you matter. And now you know how to be successful and that just gives them the glue that really helps them go out into the world and be able to succeed. And they know they can. It's incredible, it's the most amazing thing. And they teach themselves and I just support every single one and tell them see, what he did, wasn't that incredible? And then the one thing you could improve on is blah, blah, but you know, fantastic job. And then those kids realize they're safe, they can. They can take the risks that they need to take and they can benefit from it, and everybody does.

Speaker 2: 38:05

Well, I think that not only are you teaching them lifelong skills that will help them forever, I think it's also probably an event that they don't ever forget.

Speaker 1: 38:15

Oh no, I mean, I've had people pat me on the back when I'm out and about and they'll turn and somebody will say I bet you don't remember me and I'll say hi, stacey. And she said I just wanted you to know. Of all those classes I ever took in school, yours was by far the best and I love that. Yeah, you know that'll keep me going forever and you know you can see it. You can see the change in the students. They are alive, they are excited. They see that there's hope, they realize they can do this and that's not what they're getting in school. That's incredible.

Speaker 2: 38:55

Is there a name to that program that you've?

Speaker 1: 38:57

got yeah, we call it Communication and Leadership Skills. I'm thinking that needs to be taught all over the world.

Speaker 1: 39:04

In every single class. It should be taught in elementary school and then at a different level in high school and then at a different level in college. It would help kids know that they have the resources within them to succeed and that nothing matters. But they just keep going and nothing can stop them Nothing. And so it is. And they stopped teaching these kinds of things back in the industrial age because they wanted to concentrate on industrial STEM and all the other stuff. But that's the glue that keeps people alive and healthy and vibrant and together and bonded, and without it, we're seeing the results of it now. Yeah, we are sadly. Yeah, we are, and so this has to be rebooted. And it's easy and it's fun.

Speaker 1: 39:57

And I had one class that was an at-risk class, one of my very first classes I ever taught, and when I walked in, the teacher told me he said these kids will be lucky to get a job at McDonald's. And I was like what a horrible teacher to have that kind of a mindset with these kids. What do you expect those kids to get? And again I started the kids just went on fire. The kids just went on fire and they were.

Speaker 1: 40:22

It was a virtual enterprise class where they all had to create a fake kind of enterprise and then be the CEO or the CFO and they had all these duties and all that sort of thing. And then they had to go compete against 103 schools nationwide and these were at-risk kids that had very low chance of success and they swept five of the seven awards. And these were at-risk kids that had very low chance of success and they swept five of the seven awards. Oh my God, this is unbelievable. Yeah, the teacher. On their return he told me he said this is impossible. And I said this isn't impossible. This is a failure of your educational system. If I can do this in eight weeks, you have no excuse.

Speaker 1: 41:07

None, exactly, oh exactly. I'm so mad.

Speaker 2: 41:09

So mad. Well, I am so glad you are out there doing this work. You've already given us so much, so many good things to hold on to, but can you tell me, is there anything that you just want to leave us with?

Speaker 1: 41:22

today. I just want to say nobody comes on Earth for nothing. Every one of us is the center of a whole galaxy of others and that galaxy is only there because of you being where you are as you are, and the more stable you are and the more clear you are, the more stable and clear and consistent and rational and progressive the galaxy and if what I found this on john's memorial I saw a whole galaxy splinter off never be the same again. The only thing holding that whole galaxy together was John. And that's when I knew every single one of us is the same exact thing.

Speaker 1: 42:10

And I don't think most realize how important you are, how critical you are, and that the more you can find a way to find your own path and trust the process and not take anything personally it's just a lesson and trust the process and not take anything personally. It's just a lesson. It isn't about you, it's about the lesson. Learn the lesson, and the harder the lesson, the more you get to learn. That's it. That's it and so survive it, and it will equip you in ways that nothing else could and nothing is worth killing yourself for. But a lot of people walk around and they think there's nothing I can do. Yes, that thought is what kills people because you're stranding them.

Speaker 2: 42:48

So people that do want to do something and maybe want to get in touch with you and be part of your program, is that possible?

Speaker 1: 42:53

Oh my gosh. Yes, my website is sallyaraymondcom. You can certainly contact me there. I'm also. My email is s in Sam B, as in boy, s-a-l-s-n-s-l-e at coxnet, and I'm completely available. I am 82 years old this month and I am not quitting.

Speaker 2: 43:16

Good for you, happy birthday coming up.

Speaker 1: 43:21

I'm not sure this is a happy birthday, but I do feel I'm on a mission and I believe God is giving me some grace to do this, and I believe it's absolutely required right now. And I feel, in a way, john has given me not only the gift of his life and his insight and inspiration, but he's also forced me to be something. I would never have been any other way, and he was always like that.

Speaker 2: 43:48

Yeah, he kind of gave you your purpose.

Speaker 1: 43:50

He really did and he sacrificed himself. But he is not gone. Believe me, he is not gone. He still is alive to me, as ever.

Speaker 2: 43:59

And I am sure, and I agree.

Speaker 1: 44:01

Yes, yeah, and so I feel like I'm still the luckiest mom and his brother is here and his brother is pretty awesome too, so oh, great, great.

Speaker 2: 44:13

anyway, I really appreciate you coming on today and talking with all of us. I think this is going to make such a huge difference in so many people's lives. That's my hope. Yeah, well, I hope. One last thing when can we get your?

Speaker 1: 44:27

book oh, it's on Amazon the Sun I Knew Too Late a guide to help you survive and thrive, and I guarantee you it's not a downer, but it is full of very, very, very important information you can absolutely use.

Speaker 2: 44:42

Well, I'm going to grab it. It sounds wonderful. So thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 44:47

You're welcome, Amy. It's been a delight to talk to you.

Speaker 2: 44:53

Thank you for sticking with me through this heavy topic. Remember you're not alone in this. Whether you're struggling or just trying to support someone who is, there's always help and there's always hope. If you or someone you know is having thoughts of suicide, please reach out, call or text 988 to connect with a trained crisis counselor 24-7. Or if you're outside the US, look for your local helpline or chat service. We need each other to get through this together and don't forget you matter. You are worth every ounce of effort it takes to keep fighting. You have to take care of yourselves and keep advancing lawyers. Thank you.